Ensuring Welsh has a future

18 thoughts on “Ensuring Welsh has a future”

1. this does not add anything to this article is a waste of time a Labour politician. this article is not constructive. it does not add anything new to the debate. this is probably the worst I’ve ever read on this site. cannot this politician do something rather sit on his laurels. I have bored of debating is not developed any further. The AWA can’t every article only politician just because of their name. these projections are based on absolute fallacy. when will the Welsh government realise that they need to do something now. sorry but I doubt I nearly choked on my conflict reading this. maybe it is time is that people contribute to text blog rather than politicians.

2. It is called ‘in-migration’ Mike, but (for reasons of fear and blind panic) we cannot suggest that. No doubt the Brit fanatics will now come on the forum and tell you that this decline is “natural”, and “showing Wales is moving forward, and casting off its past”. Some UKIP supporters might blame Poles and Romanians but that is just their prejudices. If we want a bilingual Wales – a big question? – then all tiers of politics (including the Westminster tier) and society must alter their thinking, and implement policies that stimulate, rather than stifle, our indigenous language.

3. Thank you Mike

   I hope that Labour deliver 1 (Welsh medium for all parents who desire it, probably 40%+) and 4 (Welsh as factor in planning) but I have my doubts.

   Some comments

   1. The census (if it continues in it its current form) is now a very limited instrument. The percentage of children (5-15) reported as Welsh speaking in 2001 was inflated by wishful thinking on the part of their non-Welsh speaking parents and set the 2011 results up for a fall. Personally I am sceptical about Dafydd Wigley’s view that emigration of Welsh speaking young people explains the decline between 2001 and 2011. I have seen research which shows that non-Welsh speakers are more likely to emigrate from y Fro Gymraeg.

   The idea that 12% of Monmouthshire would be Welsh speaking in 2051 (and 61% of 3-4 year olds) by extrapolating one ten year period is clearly absurd. But the 18% by 2051 is a wake-up call for Carmarthenshire which may be little more Welsh-speaking than the Cardiff which part of S4C will leave for Carmarthen….

   It seems to me that the school census (which reports children who speak Welsh at home or are fluent and the percentage taking Welsh GCSE first language) gives a much better indication of who can and will speak Welsh. The figures nationally are around 8% for home language and a further 8% fluent. But what is more interesting is the local picture. In many communities where 30-50% of the population speak Welsh, there are virtually no native speaking children (or the few that exist are bussed to Welsh medium schools).

   This leads me to the need to focus on areas where Welsh is a living language. Adfer’s idea of Y Fro Gymraeg in the 70’s died the death as Cymdeithas yr Iaith focussed on status and the Gaeltacht’s failure in Ireland is always cited to show that creating a Welsh-speaking area would be self-defeating.

   However, I don’t think there are many alternatives unless we are happy to have a Wales where 20% of people everywhere speak Welsh as an occasional pastime. To survive, Welsh needs an area where it is the language of everyday life

   I think it’s also important to differentiate between Ireland’s Gaeltacht and and a putative Welsh speaking region of Wales.

   1. Irish was in a far worse state than Welsh in 1926 with intergenerational transmission having ceased in most areas and linguistic confidence at rock bottom
   2. The measures in favour of the Gaeltacht were largely empty rhetoric (does that ring a bell?) and economic and linguistic decline continued apace despite autonomy and independence (beware, Wales)
   3. The Gaeltacht areas (and Ireland for that matter until it joined the EU) were desperately poor and it was only in the 70 and 80’s that it dawned on the powers that be that the very institutions designed to save Irish should not be in Dublin but in the west (resonant for Wales today…)
   4. Irish language instruction was made compulsory in the schools and the unimaginative way that Irish was taught alienated the potential reservoir of second language speakers.

   It’s not too late for Welsh as on all the above counts Welsh is better placed to survive than Irish. The one disadvantage that Welsh has is inmigration by English speakers. That may have hardened the resolve to speak Welsh in Gwynedd and some areas of Ynys Môn and Conwy but it has hastened decline in most places.

   Despite the occasional rants on this site about compulsory Welsh, the language remains voluntary and that may be a strength

   Planning for me remains a moot point. The temptation is to limit any increase in the housing stock in Welsh-speaking areas but this may increase prices to a level which is still peanuts for a Londoner (selling a property and retiring to Wales or just using cash to buy a second-home) but far out of reach of any local.

   Employment remains a major concern and entrepreneurship rather than “inward investment” or more state employment will be critical to the sustainability of the Welsh-speaking north and west

   No doubt this will all seem trivial to those for whom Welsh has no value, and who espouse a global world that speaks English. To them it may seem that the sun will never set on the English (American in fact) language….. But as one who has lived and worked in that world for 25 25 years, I assure you that even if or when everyone becomes bilingual, those who only speak English will be at a disadvantage.

4. William Dolben – I agree with your comment can you contact me to discuss this item further.

5. Mike,
   Not sure I’ve every seen the phrase “I agree with your comment” on this site haha…
   I’m traveling the next few days. Drop me a line and we’ll find a time to catch up [email protected]

6. So 73% of Gwynedd’s 3-4 year olds can speak Welsh because most of them have absolutely NO CHOICE!

   But according to the FoIA only 20% of Gwynedd adults filled in their voter re-registration forms in Welsh online over a 5-year period.

   Which is the more meaningful figure for the future of the language? The social engineering figure or the personal choice figure?

   The people have voted with their feet – the social engineering must end now and the Welsh language must be left to find its own level…

7. Interesting blog post from Mike Hedges. Whilst I don’t doubt his personal sincerity and interest in the long time survival of Welsh, I have to sometimes doubt his party’s overall concern. Accepting what the Government is doing to help the language, it’s what it is doing in other fields which is completely undermining the language where it is strongest nad undermining the Governments own (commendable) policies. Mike agrees with Williams Dolben (as do I) that in order for the native and unique language of Wales to survive, still spoken by a sizeable amount of people, it needs to live as a community language and to this end he suggests changing TAN 20.

   Why then Mike has your Government failed to strengthen TAN 20 sufficiently? Why is Carl Sergeant determined to force 8,000 unneeded homes on Anglesey and Gwynedd? Why isn’t immigration into Wales from other parts of the UK ever discussed properly, without the terms ‘racist’ and ‘bigot’ being thrown around just to stifle debate?

   Whilst accepting that a transient population is a massive problem, local housing policy will have a massive effect on affordable and available housing for local (Welsh speaking) people and on the long term future of the language that has served Wales well enough for it to last at least 1,500 years.

   Inward migration and housing policy were two massive themes in the consultation that the Welsh Government carried out during Y Gynhadledd Fawr, as noted in Iaith Cyf. report on the responses given. As it cost over £90,000 to hold, maybe it’s time we tool note of peoples legitimate concerns in this area and start dealing with the ever increasing English-born population who by the look of it don’t seem willing to learn Welsh.

8. Re number 2 ‘the benefits of welsh’

   I hope we’re not talking here of yet more disturbing exercises involving 2 dolls (presented to kids like a sort of Punch and Judy)… One of which speaks Welsh and therefore gets a job and the other is presumably thrown on the scrap heap. People need to be told of real benefits… Not just the manufactured, fake environment in which public sector workers are required to be welsh speaking. That is just policy, and can be changed overnight … It is not a real, tangible benefit

9. Pointless article with back-of-an-envelope ‘analysis’. This is an important matter and I’m sure there are people out there who could have made informed predictions based on the information available, from Wales and elsewhere in the world, and on that basis identified those key action points most likely to yield positive results in the future. Unwaith eto mae rhywun yn pregethu yn Saesneg i’r Cymry Cymraeg.

10. More county councils in ‘Y Fro’, including Ceredigion, Carmarthenshire and Mon could conduct their business in Welsh for starters.

11. Thanks Mike.

    @Alasdair – I agree that this could be seen as a tad superficial, but I found the figures interesting and useful, and agree very much with point 4. But I do strongly disagree with your final point – it is important to also discuss measures to protect and promote our language through the medium of English as well as through the medium of Welsh. A great many non-Welsh speaking Welsh people I know care deeply about it, even if their ability to communicate in Welsh is poor to nonexistent.

    @William – Excellent points. I have also been taking an interest recently in the failure of the Gaeltacht and it also seems to me that it has been a problem of empty rhetoric with little action. Goodwill towards the Irish language is there among most of the public, as it is in Wales – this can be seen in the programme No Bearla on YouTube. The problem seems to have been poor and inconsistent language policy by the Irish government. We have a lot of lessons to learn from Ireland in this respect.

    I think the lesson to politicians such as Mike Hedges is that we need concrete action to accompany kind words. It would be encouraging if politicians could look closely at the idea of ‘Y Fro Gymraeg’ and come up with a bold far-reaching plan in order to secure the position of Welsh as a de-facto language of the community in these areas. This would compliment the work being done in the predominantly English speaking parts of Wales.

    Mike, have you read the recently published Pa Beth yr Aethoch Allan I’w Achub? Some great points made in that book.

12. Mike,
    One of the most useful things for the future of the language is in your hands, personally, and that of the Labour Movement as a whole. That is, support the Welsh language as much as as fervently as your English colleagues support their language and identity.

    The bigoted thinking of Engels still dominates too much of the Labour Movement. He specifically named Scots as “trash” or “rubbish” that were too small to be of use to Socialism. A racist way of thinking, is it not?

    It’s about time that the Labour Movement showed some moral backbone and stand by the likes of miners, quarrymen and farm labourers who have stuggled for their culture in the face of a London-based establishement which seeks to destroy it.

    We all know when Milliband and Cameron talk of “One Nation” nationalism they don’t mean Wales, Scotland nor Ireland. So why doesn’t so-called Welsh Labour they will not put up with it?

13. I am happy to be the voice of reason in this debate. It is reasonable for any Welsh person to speak English. It is reasonable for any Welsh person to not want to be coerced in to using, learning or promoting Cymraeg. After years of Labour ‘leadership’ in this area the number of speakers has fallen and the goodwill towards Cymraeg, mentioned by some, has dwindled. A recent Radio 4 programme highlighted concerns that promotion of Cymraeg is having a detrimental effect on some children attending Cymraeg only schools.

    #welshproblemsnight on Twitter is dotted with comments from children who have been coerced to “promote” Cymraeg. It is just irrelevant to many. These policy recommendations are peppered with anachronisms irrelevant to the 21st learner.

    #1 speaks of parental choice yet the remainder all wreak of more coercion.
    #2 benefits of Welsh Medium education?? Who benefits?

    Quite simply I reject these recommendations and actively oppose the coercion associated with Cymraeg. It appears that the vast majority also share my view as less and less people are speaking or using Cymraeg.

    Labour policies are Victorian and do not reflect #thewaleswewant. You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink and the wind and the sun fable spring to mind.

    #endcymraegcoercion

14. @Whistleblower- Hi Glasnost/ Gogwatch. You would reject the proposals as implementing them would empower the Welsh speaking population to resist colonisation and put Welsh on a stronger footing going into the next few decades. As far ac coercion is concerned, how is WM education being forced on people? The situation in Grangetown in Cardiff and the refusal of Cardiff Council to respond to demand disproves your assumption. As for Ceredigion, Gwynedd and Anglesey (to which no doubt you refer) the language of these schools should be and always will be Welsh. Why should an incoming tidal wave of people change the native language of these areas? Plenty of EM schools elsewhere.

    As far as the ‘majority’ are concerned, havn’t recent polls done by the BBC shown support for the language? Just because about 70% of Welsh people (i.e. those born in Wales) do not speak Welsh for historical reasons that does not mean that they will automatically agree with your prejudice.

    Welsh will always be spoken in Wales regardless of the vicissitudes and ravages of time. No one is suggesting the removal of English from Wales but as usual with single minded english language zealots you want to remove Welsh completely from its rightful place at the centre of Welsh public life.

15. As Trystan suggested, I would highly recommend the book ‘Pa beth aethoch allan i’w achub’ as it puts in to perspective what is happening and unashamedly sets out what must be done.

16. A voice of reason requires reason to be voiced. Therefore, if:

    It is reasonable for any Welsh person to speak English
    It is reasonable for any person to not want to be coerced to using, learning or promoting Welsh

    And if those two points are to form part of a reasonable construct, then:

    It is reasonable for any Welsh person to use Welsh (should they so desire)
    It is reasonable for any Welsh person not to be coerced to speak English (should they so desire)
    It is reasonable for any Welsh person to be allowed to promote learn Welsh (should they so desire)

    Reason involves logic rather than rhetoric.

17. Reason also extends into education.

    It is reasonable for any Welsh person to learn Welsh, should they so desire

    It is reasonable for any Welsh person to live in a society which is actuated by reason.

18. As some people have commented, this article doesn’t add anything new to the many debates that have taken place on this forum. Indeed, it seems to have ignored them, particularly the practicalities involved in these proposals. Simply stating demands without any proper analysis as to how they can be achieved seems little more than political posturing. For the Welsh language to have any hope of maintaining it’s current level of use there is a need to properly consider how, the costs, practicalities, consequences and time-scales – and perhaps more important, what can realistically be achieved and the manner in which this is carried out.

    It is one thing for people to say that they support the language when asked, it might be considered non-PC to say otherwise, but if this is merely surface goodwill then the future looks bleak and the creation of more laws to uphold the language will probably just cause more antagonism.

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